Carbon footprint : ice beater vs new electric

[theSeb]

This is an argument that is thrown around by people who have stopped denying climate change, but still want to keep the status quo. It’s apparently better to keep an old car than to buy a new electric car. Finally we have some logical maths

In two years, the EV will have caught up to the used car in terms of ecological footprint. After that, as with new gas cars, an EV surpasses it in efficiency for its entire life cycle.

New EV vs. old beater: Which is better for the environment?

EVs require more energy to build, but they are far more efficient to operate.

arstechnica.com

 

[P___X]

This is an argument that is thrown around by people who have stopped denying climate change, but still want to keep the status quo. It’s apparently better to keep an old car than to buy a new electric car. Finally we have some logical maths

New EV vs. old beater: Which is better for the environment?

EVs require more energy to build, but they are far more efficient to operate.

arstechnica.com

I like that they covered the markup issue in the article. Car dealers are digging their own graves.
I suspect that EVs and Tesla will kill traditional dealerships, unless they transform.

So we have these almost-as-good-as Tesla cars like the Mach-E or the Ioniq5 so you see how competitively they are priced, etc.
Then you go to the dealer's webpage and you see that they marked up the cars to cost more than their Tesla competitor, but without the OTA updates or charging network.
In fact, the markups are done to eliminate the savings of the federal tax refund. So essentially our tax dollars subsidize car dealers and not the buyers.
It's a huge problem. Adding the fact that EVs need much less maintenance, I'm not sure what dealerships are going to be doing 10 years from now.
So yeah, dealers' short term greed pushes potential buyers towards Tesla.

 

[SouprMatt]

I like that they covered the markup issue in the article. Car dealers are digging their own graves.
I suspect that EVs and Tesla will kill traditional dealerships, unless they transform.

So we have these almost-as-good-as Tesla cars like the Mach-E or the Ioniq5 so you see how competitively they are priced, etc.
Then you go to the dealer's webpage and you see that they marked up the cars to cost more than their Tesla competitor, but without the OTA updates or charging network.
In fact, the markups are done to eliminate the savings of the federal tax refund. So essentially our tax dollars subsidize car dealers and not the buyers.
It's a huge problem. Adding the fact that EVs need much less maintenance, I'm not sure what dealerships are going to be doing 10 years from now.
So yeah, dealers' short term greed pushes potential buyers towards Tesla.

It’s pure profiteering right now. All this inflation, and I can still buy a MacBook Pro for the same price as 2 years ago… and Apple is still making big profits. So you just know everybody else (especially the car makers) is getting free money off of the inflation fears. Too bad a small group of large companies control most markets. If we had more competition right now, prices would not be as high as they are.

 

[P___X]

It’s pure profiteering right now. All this inflation, and I can still buy a MacBook Pro for the same price as 2 years ago… and Apple is still making big profits. So you just know everybody else (especially the car makers) is getting free money off of the inflation fears. Too bad a small group of large companies control most markets. If we had more competition right now, prices would not be as high as they are.

And a Macbook is literally full of chips, LOL.

 

[The_Real_Deal82]

Electric cars are perhaps better for the environment as long as our power isn’t coming from coal powered power stations in some regions, but diesel cars are better for my wallet lol. I’ve just bought a new diesel car for a very good price and although the cost of diesel is stupidly high at the moment, I can’t afford the equivalent size and spec in an electric variant. I think it’ll be a long time before that is the case if I’m honest.

 

[P___X]

Electric cars are perhaps better for the environment as long as our power isn’t coming from coal powered power stations in some regions, but diesel cars are better for my wallet lol. I’ve just bought a new diesel car for a very good price and although the cost of diesel is stupidly high at the moment, I can’t afford the equivalent size and spec in an electric variant. I think it’ll be a long time before that is the case if I’m honest.

AFAIK, even coal power is cleaner and more efficient than burning gasoline. Diesel is absolutely the worst and people think it is better than regular gasoline because a gallon gives you more range. In reality, diesel has longer carbon chains, so it is more energy dense, but withet the refining process, it produces way more toxic fumes and co2.

 

[The_Real_Deal82]

AFAIK, even coal power is cleaner and more efficient than burning gasoline. Diesel is absolutely the worst and people think it is better than regular gasoline because a gallon gives you more range. In reality, diesel has longer carbon chains, so it is more energy dense, but withet the refining process, it produces way more toxic fumes and co2.

That’s all very true but from a drivers point of view diesel offers good mpg and range. My car gets 450-500 miles of range on a full tank and for the general commute I’m filling up every two and a half weeks. Id go electric tomorrow if the range between charges was 300-400 miles, I could get a car with a 500-600 litre boot, and in a budget of £25k.

 

[P___X]

That’s all very true but from a drivers point of view diesel offers good mpg and range. My car gets 450-500 miles of range on a full tank and for the general commute I’m filling up every two and a half weeks. Id go electric tomorrow if the range between charges was 300-400 miles, I could get a car with a 500-600 litre boot, and in a budget of £25k.

All true, but add carbon footprint to the price. Someone pays for that down the road.

 

[The_Real_Deal82]

All true, but add carbon footprint to the price. Someone pays for that down the road.

Indeed, but everybody is being squeezed financially right now be it energy prices and all products we buy. I simply can’t afford to spend £70k-£100k on an electric car suitable to my needs and at the spec I am used to. Until the cost of EV’s comes down, i’ll be putting off buying one for as long as possible. I think hybrids are a much better solution in the short term.

 

[EricWN]

What about the environmental impact that the batteries have once these cars are done? Aren’t they one big toxic waste? If the batteries can be made AND recycled with a low impact on the planet and all components are made on-site then we’ll be a huge step forward. Until then and until the car offerings are better with regards to space and cost, I’m thinking along the lines of The Real Deal here as I simply cannot afford a electric vehicle that has the space and the range that I’d like to have when travelling with the family.
A Tesla model three where I can hardly fit in the driver’s seat when two child seats are mounted in the back is not suitable for a family with two small children (actually the rear seats aren’t suitable for anyone long term) but the thing costs as much as a comfortable SUV.

In the meantime I’ll try to further minimise driving around in a car at all. In the warmer months I ride with the electric bike to bring my kids to daycare and plan ahead when going out to get groceries. In the winter months however I often need four wheel drive just to get out of the driveway…

 

[SouprMatt]

The planet is doomed.

 

[P___X]

Indeed, but everybody is being squeezed financially right now be it energy prices and all products we buy. I simply can’t afford to spend £70k-£100k on an electric car suitable to my needs and at the spec I am used to. Until the cost of EV’s comes down, i’ll be putting off buying one for as long as possible. I think hybrids are a much better solution in the short term.

I understand. I'm looking for a 6-seater plug-in. There's a $20K markup on it right now.... Absurd.

What about the environmental impact that the batteries have once these cars are done? Aren’t they one big toxic waste? If the batteries can be made AND recycled with a low impact on the planet and all components are made on-site then we’ll be a huge step forward.

EV batteries are well-recyclable, so the second birth of such a battery will be a lot less toxic. On top of that, Standard Range teslas now use lithium iron-phosphate batteries that use no cobalt. So the carbon footprint of new EVs will drop further and further in the future.

Until then and until the car offerings are better with regards to space and cost, I’m thinking along the lines of The Real Deal here as I simply cannot afford a electric vehicle that has the space and the range that I’d like to have when travelling with the family.
A Tesla model three where I can hardly fit in the driver’s seat when two child seats are mounted in the back is not suitable for a family with two small children (actually the rear seats aren’t suitable for anyone long term) but the thing costs as much as a comfortable SUV

Key is car offerings. This is why I'm whining continuously about US dealers' making EVs a bad deal. Options are virtually increasing but these still come with a high price tag and dealer markups just make them uncompetitive. $62-67K for an extended range MachE?! And to be clear, no fucking way I'm gonna put $20-25K in the pocket of Elon Musk (their profit margin on Model 3 was already ≥35% 2 years ago).

Model 3 is definitely not comfortable for a tall driver with child seats, but it's also almost like the child seat industry made a pact with the SUV industry to make the bulkiest products possible, so that a 3-year-old needs more back seat space than a 190cm adult. Flatter child seats can go a long way (literally).

In the meantime I’ll try to further minimise driving around in a car at all. In the warmer months I ride with the electric bike to bring my kids to daycare and plan ahead when going out to get groceries. In the winter months however I often need four wheel drive just to get out of the driveway…

Yes, that's the key ultimately. My wife and I walk or bike to work 3 days a week. And we do have a small EV that is perfect for a short commute. Usually rent a car for road trips and while I would have loved to consolidate all of this with a 6-seat plug-in hybrid, at today's prices, we'll just stick to our current system.

 

[Herdfan]

AFAIK, even coal power is cleaner and more efficient than burning gasoline. Diesel is absolutely the worst and people think it is better than regular gasoline because a gallon gives you more range. In reality, diesel has longer carbon chains, so it is more energy dense, but withet the refining process, it produces way more toxic fumes and co2.

I will give you that on older non-SCR diesels. But my truck, even if you stick your nose down by the exhaust, you can't really tell it is a diesel.

Not really who is to blame for a myriad of glider truck regulations (multiple administrations have had their hands in them to various degrees), but it has created a huge loophole to keep older non-SCR engines on the road.

 

[P___X]

I will give you that on older non-SCR diesels. But my truck, even if you stick your nose down by the exhaust, you can't really tell it is a diesel.

That's what WV said. Then NOx was measured in the air in innercities and major German cities started banning diesel, even newer ones.
The fact that you carry a set of rubber gloves for filling diesel in your truck tells a lot about the fuel.

Not really who is to blame for a myriad of glider truck regulations (multiple administrations have had their hands in them to various degrees), but it has created a huge loophole to keep older non-SCR engines on the road.

I don't know the level of pollution generated during refining, but again, I've noted that some people think the higher energy density of diesel means it's cleaner than refined gasoline, where in reality it's the opposite. Of course, the energy density is practical for big rigs.

 

[Herdfan]

That's what WV said. Then NOx was measured in the air in innercities and major German cities started banning diesel, even newer ones.
The fact that you carry a set of rubber gloves for filling diesel in your truck tells a lot about the fuel.


I don't know the level of pollution generated during refining, but again, I've noted that some people think the higher energy density of diesel means it's cleaner than refined gasoline, where in reality it's the opposite. Of course, the energy density is practical for big rigs.

Damn, you have a memory for sure. 🙂

I carry the gloves because it stinks and I don't want to smell it inside. Nor does the wife. 😉

As for the energy density, it absolutely has more. In my truck, I couldn't have the 6.2L gasser. It simply doesn't have enough power to tow my large trailer. The 7.3L gasser does, but only by 1,000lbs.

Interesting about the German's. Didn't they basically pioneer small diesels for cars?

 

[P___X]

Damn, you have a memory for sure. 🙂

I carry the gloves because it stinks and I don't want to smell it inside. Nor does the wife. 😉

I memorize what people say for a living. 😉

Interesting about the German's. Didn't they basically pioneer small diesels for cars?

As far as I know diesel was one of the key aspect to German military superiority in WW2.
Volkswagen is the lovechild of national socialism.

 

[bigmcguire]

I absolutely hate dealerships. I bought my first car in 2014. I started driving in 2003 and got second hand used cars that fell apart requiring an insane amount of $ just to keep them on the road, so I decided I would go to a dealer and get a nice new car. The first experience was almost 10 hours. That and they lied to me saying the best APR they could give me was 12%. At the time I was too stupid to realize that and had no clue. I bought a second car from that same dealership (a 6+ hour experience despite us telling them we wanted to hurry) and the best they could do was 8% apr.

It wasn't until my wife's friend's dad (works with used cars) showed us that we could apply for and get a .5% apr loan so we got 2 cars through him at .5% apr (Honda Financing). When that happened, I promised to never again step foot in another dealership (I do realize that my ignorance was part of the cause).

We sold both of our 2018 Civics for 80+% of what we paid for them in February and were able to get a $66k used Tesla (2018 AWD LR) for $49k through Tesla. The same year/mileage used Tesla is now going for $20k+ more. The experience of buying a car through Tesla was so amazing - took less than an hour of applying online, everything digital, people calling from Tesla asking if we needed help, it was so incredibly positive.

Re the article: Getting a used EV has to count for something. I know where the state of CA's power comes from: http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx - One can also do "green rate" for Socal Edison to pay a little bit higher to help solar power. Socal Edison also gave us $1000 for buying a Used EV and we qualified for a cheaper kwhr rate because we have an EV.

 

[Herdfan]

I absolutely hate dealerships.

The key to success at a dealership is simply being willing to walk away. Granted a little bit harder now, but a friend managed to get a Chevy dealer to remove the "Market Adjustment" of $2500 from the truck he ordered. They tried to add it and he said no and asked for his deposit back. The relented as they should have given they were selling it for MSRP.

I am afraid dealers are going to become accustomed to selling at MSRP, at least for a while.

Even with Financing in hand, just doing the deal can take a few hours. I want to say 3 trucks ago, they were getting it from another dealer. They called and said it was in and ready. I asked about the paperwork and they told me it was ready to go. Since I wasn't trading in one in this deal, I had the wife drop me off. I sat there for 30 minutes. Then 45. I had asked twice and they said they were working on it. I left. I get a panicked call from the salesman about an hour later asking where I went. I told him I went home because the paperwork wasn't ready and I had been told it was and I might be back in the morning when they opened. And if the paperwork wasn't ready then, I would find another truck. It was. 🙂

Again, they need to want the sale more than you want the vehicle. I know it is hard, but that's what it takes.

 

[P___X]

The key to success at a dealership is simply being willing to walk away. Granted a little bit harder now, but a friend managed to get a Chevy dealer to remove the "Market Adjustment" of $2500 from the truck he ordered. They tried to add it and he said no and asked for his deposit back. The relented as they should have given they were selling it for MSRP.

I am afraid dealers are going to become accustomed to selling at MSRP, at least for a while.

Even with Financing in hand, just doing the deal can take a few hours. I want to say 3 trucks ago, they were getting it from another dealer. They called and said it was in and ready. I asked about the paperwork and they told me it was ready to go. Since I wasn't trading in one in this deal, I had the wife drop me off. I sat there for 30 minutes. Then 45. I had asked twice and they said they were working on it. I left. I get a panicked call from the salesman about an hour later asking where I went. I told him I went home because the paperwork wasn't ready and I had been told it was and I might be back in the morning when they opened. And if the paperwork wasn't ready then, I would find another truck. It was. 🙂

Again, they need to want the sale more than you want the vehicle. I know it is hard, but that's what it takes.

This reminds my why I hate comcast from the bottom of my heart. Having to remember and call them any time the time-limited ""deals"" on their cartered prices expire and the bullshit discounts they suddenly find the moment you tell them you're cancelling...

Same thing with dealers. You're right, you need to be willing to play the games they play, but in all honesty, not everybody has time for this. I got a very reasonable deal on my Prius back in the day, and it only took me like an hour. While I don't generally put a price tag on my time, if I have to spend 3 hours on BS like this, it means, I've already wasted hundreds of dollars just to deal with some shady folks. This is why I rather wait many months to buy a car, rather than having to deal with this shit. I'd rather rent as needed for now.

 

[EricWN]

The used car market is also a sad place at the moment. Looking at used Moldel 3s, the entry price is about 55-60000 $CAD. Ridiculous. I'd like to have something spacious like a VW Atlas, but entry prices have since Covid gone up from low 20s to mid 30K pricing.