What's new
The Snug

Welcome to The Snug - a friendly place for discussions created by the community for the community. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Israel and Palestine at war again

T

TBL

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
400
Reaction score
868
Gaza militants launched "surprise attack" in Israel today, causing Netanyahu to declare that Israel is at war.

Around 200 Palestinians and 70 Israelis killed so far.


Violence flares up in this inherently unstable region periodically; is there any reason to think this will be any different than the last several times?
 
TBL said:
Gaza militants launched "surprise attack" in Israel today, causing Netanyahu to declare that Israel is at war.

Around 200 Palestinians and 70 Israelis killed so far.


Violence flares up in this inherently unstable region periodically; is there any reason to think this will be any different than the last several times?
Click to expand...
It’s such a sad cycle. The more conflict, the more people turn to hard-liners in their choices of government leadership. Which then leads to more violence.
 
I briefly had CNN on. They kept hammering on how "this is the worst Israeli intel failure since the Yom Kippur war..." I don't know how anybody decided that so quickly. I guess i just do better reading newspapers. The third time someone said that on CNN I was ready to throw my phone across the room.

What it is, is exasperating and tragic. Yet again.

Also feeds Netanyahu's authoritarian positions. Doubly exasperating and tragic yet again.
 
I really don't understand what was the plan here. They have to know what's coming, as this is the invitation for massive retaliation that a war hawk has always wanted.

www.vox.com

Why did Hamas invade Israel?

The assault on southern Israel exposed the reality of the Palestinian conflict.
www.vox.com www.vox.com
Click to expand...


The cost to the Palestinians is going to be brutal for this.
 
Jay Mysteri0 said:
I really don't understand what was the plan here. They have to know what's coming, as this is the invitation for massive retaliation that a war hawk has always wanted.

The cost to the Palestinians is going to be brutal for this.
Click to expand...

Yah, well... this is essentially Iran talking, no? It's an op-ed, a sidebar, use of a proxy to express their views on the prospects of Israel and Saudi Arabia becoming best buds with encouragement by the USA. Gets more press than just parading around Tehran shouting death to America.
 
I know the topic is a touchy one, but I really am confused. The people of Gaza will bear the true brunt of this, and it will just harden the resolve of both sides.



Hamas kills Israeli citizens giving Netanyahu the opportunity to go scorched earth literally, which will motivate Palestinians. This is just death all around.
 
Yes, I wish people would stop acting like this is a war between two equal sides. It's a war between a nationalist, ethno-state and an oppressed non-state. The two sides are not equal. That does not mean that they don't do similar things in these conflicts, but the Palestinians are at a great disadvantage and stand to lose the most of what little they have.
 
Meanwhile Republicans are blaming it all on Biden... the talking points hastily developed are that his "going easy" on Iran made the attacks from Gaza on Israel possible. The suggestion, tacit or explicit, is that Biden releasing frozen Iranian oil sale proceeds --in exchange for release of US political prisoners that Iran had been holding-- has translated into purchase of weapons to be used on Israel from Gaza.

Those Rs are just trying to stave off inevitable finger-pointing at Trump, who unilaterally walked out on the JCPOA. He had reluctantly certified that Iran was in compliance with terms of the agreement twice, dragged into signing off on it by his own cabinet heads and the NSC, who were pointing out he had absolutely no reason to say Iran was not in compliance... and then he just bailed, refusing to sign off on compliance again, and announcing he'd "make a much better deal with Iran," which of course he never did.

So now Iran looks back on that and the resultant spooking of European economic ventures that had been starting up until the JCPOA was renounced by the USA, and now Iran also sees deals in the region that involve Arab nations and Israel but that don't involve improvement to Iran's economic situation... and so will not help improve their own domestic situation either.

So hey, from the ayatollahs' viewpoint, what's happening in Gaza now is a nice distraction from social protests in Iran as well as a message to the West.

But the Rs should shut up about this, not least because they are not in the White House again yet thanks God. Oh, I forgot. That whole thing about political disputes in Congress about foreign policy stopping at the shoreline is obsolete any time a Democrat is in the Oval Office.
 
Jay Mysteri0 said:
I really don't understand what was the plan here. They have to know what's coming, as this is the invitation for massive retaliation that a war hawk has always wanted.

The cost to the Palestinians is going to be brutal for this.
Click to expand...
Thanks, this is a pretty good article, I needed some explanation because the conflict doesn't seem to make strategic sense. Traditionally, what Hamas had been doing with the rocket barrage is to deplete Israel's Iron Dome system (what is it, like 50,000 a pop?). The Iron Dome is essentially 100% effective so they inflict very very little civilian damage, but generate hundreds of millions of dollars of cost on Israel, straining their relationship with the US, etc. This has the opposite effect.

I think the secret ingredient to these conflicts is very simple: religious extremism.
 
Perspective from an Israeli writer:

www.972mag.com

Gaza’s shock attack has terrified Israelis. It should also unveil the context

The dread Israelis are feeling, myself included, has been the daily experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long.
www.972mag.com www.972mag.com

Contrary to what many Israelis are saying, and while the army was clearly caught completely off guard by this invasion, this is not a “unilateral” or “unprovoked” attack. The dread Israelis are feeling right now, myself included, is a sliver of what Palestinians have been feeling on a daily basis under the decades-long military regime in the West Bank, and under the siege and repeated assaults on Gaza. The responses we are hearing from many Israelis today — of people calling to “flatten Gaza,” that “these are savages, not people you can negotiate with,” “they are murdering whole families,” “there’s no room to talk with these people” — are exactly what I have heard occupied Palestinians say about Israelis countless times.
Click to expand...
The “Abraham Accords” may have made things worse, not better:

The attack this morning also has more recent contexts. One of them is the looming horizon of a normalization deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel. For years, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been making the case that peace can be achieved without talking to Palestinians or making any concessions. The Abraham Accords have stripped Palestinians of one of their last bargaining chips and support bases: the solidarity of Arab governments, despite that solidarity having long been questionable. The high likelihood of losing perhaps the most important of those Arab states may well have helped push Hamas to the edge.
Click to expand...
 
P___X said:
I think the secret ingredient to these conflicts is very simple: religious extremism
Click to expand...
Well in the case of Iran's assistance to Palestinian groups, the ayatollahs have never actually been fussy about the brand of Islam with which the players they help out (and use as proxies) are affiliated.

I mean Iran had no problem cutting deals to use Arafat's terrorist network in Paris, until they built their own. And Arafat's guys were all Sunni, not Shia. Iran's post-revolution rulers just found themselves needing a network in France after the Shah was deposed, so they bought it. The primarily secular goal of Palestinian groups was and is about establishment of a Palestinian state, although it's true they use appeals to traditions of Islamic jihad to recruit terrorists operating abroad, as a way of signaling "no Palestine, no peace."

Since the 1979 revolution, Iranian clerics' own use of religion -- either in-country or elsewhere-- has all been in service of a thoroughly corrupt autocracy, and meanwhile suppressing trends towards ethnic nationalism in some of their provinces. In practice they're about as focused on religious values as, say, hedge funds who buy newspaper chains are focused on journalism.
 
A little background on Iran's interest in groups working to establish a Palestinian state. For Iran, it's about assisting proxies in its conflict with the west. After all, Palestinians are Arabs, and Iranians are Persians, so why should Iran care about the fate of Palestinians? In theory they're no more dear to Iran than are Arabs in Saudi Arabia or Jordan. But in the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, particularly in recent times, the USA been been viewed more as backer of Israel than as honest broker of a peace that will result in a two-state solution. That suits Iran fine and so it continues to help stir up trouble in both Lebanon and the Palestinian territories by supporting proxies operating in those regions.

www.theatlantic.com

Is Israel at War With Iran?

Tehran is exploiting a conflict left to fester for too long.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
 
lizkat said:
Well in the case of Iran's assistance to Palestinian groups, the ayatollahs have never actually been fussy about the brand of Islam with which the players they help out (and use as proxies) are affiliated.

I mean Iran had no problem cutting deals to use Arafat's terrorist network in Paris, until they built their own. And Arafat's guys were all Sunni, not Shia. Iran's post-revolution rulers just found themselves needing a network in France after the Shah was deposed, so they bought it. The primarily secular goal of Palestinian groups was and is about establishment of a Palestinian state, although it's true they use appeals to traditions of Islamic jihad to recruit terrorists operating abroad, as a way of signaling "no Palestine, no peace."

Since the 1979 revolution, Iranian clerics' own use of religion -- either in-country or elsewhere-- has all been in service of a thoroughly corrupt autocracy, and meanwhile suppressing trends towards ethnic nationalism in some of their provinces. In practice they're about as focused on religious values as, say, hedge funds who buy newspaper chains are focused on journalism.
Click to expand...
I think leaders are always a lot more cynical than the actual followers. Also, my comments on extremism weren't exclusive to muslims.
 
lizkat said:
Meanwhile Republicans are blaming it all on Biden... the talking points hastily developed are that his "going easy" on Iran made the attacks from Gaza on Israel possible. The suggestion, tacit or explicit, is that Biden releasing frozen Iranian oil sale proceeds --in exchange for release of US political prisoners that Iran had been holding-- has translated into purchase of weapons to be used on Israel from Gaza.

Those Rs are just trying to stave off inevitable finger-pointing at Trump, who unilaterally walked out on the JCPOA. He had reluctantly certified that Iran was in compliance with terms of the agreement twice, dragged into signing off on it by his own cabinet heads and the NSC, who were pointing out he had absolutely no reason to say Iran was not in compliance... and then he just bailed, refusing to sign off on compliance again, and announcing he'd "make a much better deal with Iran," which of course he never did.

So now Iran looks back on that and the resultant spooking of European economic ventures that had been starting up until the JCPOA was renounced by the USA, and now Iran also sees deals in the region that involve Arab nations and Israel but that don't involve improvement to Iran's economic situation... and so will not help improve their own domestic situation either.

So hey, from the ayatollahs' viewpoint, what's happening in Gaza now is a nice distraction from social protests in Iran as well as a message to the West.

But the Rs should shut up about this, not least because they are not in the White House again yet thanks God. Oh, I forgot. That whole thing about political disputes in Congress about foreign policy stopping at the shoreline is obsolete any time a Democrat is in the Oval Office.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the repubs may want to sit this one out.



www.dailykos.com

Retracted

Admin note: This story, originally titled “Donald Trump’s mishandling of classified information likely contributed to surprise attack on Israel,” has been removed due to misinformation. Evidence-free speculation (i.e., conspiracy theorizing) is...
www.dailykos.com
Click to expand...

If this can be definitively proven, that's a lot of "ally" blood on one man's hands.

Seriously, they need to sit down and shut the hell up.

 
Last edited:
Who here think Israel has clean hands? There is definietly a reap what you sew aspect. One person’s terrorist, is another person‘s freedom fighter. Ask Israel circa late 40’s, they know all about it. 🤔🔥
 
Huntn said:
Who here think Israel has clean hands? There is definietly a reap what you sew aspect. One person’s terrorist, is another person‘s freedom fighter. Ask Israel circa late 40’s, they know all about it. 🤔🔥
Click to expand...
I don't imagine many think Israel's hands are clean. Even some of Israel's own politicians acknowledge the reality of the Palestinians. The issue of course is that pushed with nothing to lose, Hamas wants to retaliate violently. With the citizenry on both sides paying the cost.

As I wondered earlier, why the F? Israeli people died due to the actions of it's gov't against a smaller group of people. Palestinians basically live in what's called "an open air prison", and now that's being razed. Nothing comes from this. Hamas isn't going to get anything for the Palestinian people, and Netanyahu is going to ride this to his ultimate end goal of dictatorship.

I worry this somehow gets spun into some proxy fight involving the US & Russia as well, as Russia tries to "whatabout" their shit in Ukraine.
 
OMG. This is heinous.

"In response to Israeli airstrikes that have killed hundreds, Hamas has announced that it will execute a hostage every time Gazan civilians are targeted in their homes "without warning"

1696872043236.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Back
Top