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Seymour Hersh: The U.S. bombed the Nord Stream Pipeline

TBL

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Seymour Hersh, the Pulitzer-prize winning journalist who helped expose past American foreign policy scandals like the My Lai Massacre and the torture at Abu Ghraib, claims that the U.S. bombed the Nord Stream pipeline in September 2022:


Here is Hersh's original Substack post:


Do you think his claim is accurate? Why/why not? The official government line is that it was not bombed by the U.S. and we simply don't know who sabotaged the pipeline. The White House has repudiated Hersh's claims.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
I don't know, is the only answer I can give to your questions (whether I think that the claim is accurate). Why/why not are - for now, in the absence of information and credible sources - beyond me.

I simply don't know the facts of the situation, or enough about it to comment intelligently.

However, I will comment on the source: The Times is owned by Mr Murdoch, and the days when it was considered to be akin to "The Voice" of the UK - as an expression of classic 'central' conservatism - are long gone; in fact, this is a source I would consider rather tainted, (on account of the fact of Murdoch ownership) and would find it difficult to accept anything it has published unless I received corroboration from a credible source.

"Credible" in this context doesn't necessarily mean a publication that is considered, or deemed to be, "liberal" or "left"; just a sane, sensible, intelligent, credible, right wing source would do for me (let us say, for example, The Economist, or FT). This doesn't mean that I would automatically accept that the the story was true were it to appear in either source; rather, it is just that I would take it seriously as a story, because the source would have done so, and would have investigated it as serious journalists or reporters, not as paid pens for an ideological platform promoting an extremely right wing agenda.
 
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I'm keeping an open mind, but at first blush it looks to me like Hersh is being played. Yes, the US was opposed to the pipelines, seeing them as a way Russia could make Europe dependent on them for natural gas. But the pipelines were not yet transporting gas at the time of the explosions. They were, however, filled, which is how the gas escaped into the atmosphere.

The idea that the United States would, with the intent of punishing Russia, undertake a wildcat operation that would anger its allies and deprive them of a potential source of natural gas, not to mention releasing so much methane into the atmosphere as to exacerbate our existing climate change problem, seems far-fetched to me. And let's not forget that Russian ships were spotted in the area at the time.

This may turn out to be true, but I'll be surprised if it is.
 
Sy Hersh is good at connecting dots, with credible detail, and certainly writes well enough to draw a reader in, but he's also made himself something of a target for people with their own agenda or a propaganda mission. For instance his discredited alternate accounting of the death of bin Laden, where both his article and his primary sources happened to be pretty much lined up with Pakistani interests.
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Not all his stuff hangs together as well as did his stellar reporting on My Lai and Abu Ghraib. So I dunno. Just.Do.Not.Know. This piece was a helluva good read and that's the thing, his prose often makes for a compelling read. This one, though... strains credulity.
 
I have serious doubts since Hersh's later reporting after My Lai and Abu Ghraib -- both with direct details from first-hand sources, the latter scandal with video footage released publicly -- has been... spotty to use a kinder word than what I initially wanted to use. Given the above posts about the Russians and lack of motive on the part of the USA, I'll consider this disinformation.
 
Reading other posts here (from people whose thoughts I respect, and you are all American, so you "get" the US in a way that I don't, and - for now - nobody seems to take this seriously) - which seem to echo my own reservations - (there is no mention of this story in the Guardian, for example, or in DW, or on a website which collates all English language sources reporting on Ukraine; however, Al Jazeera does have a piece on it, - a straightforward piece of reporting, and quotes Russian sources, who, when commenting on the piece by Hersh, stated that "the US has questions to answer", adding that "Russia, in the absence of evidence, has repeatedly said NATO nations were responsible for last year's explosions" ); anyway, in the absence of independent corroboration, or evidence, I will reserve judgment

@TBL: Ask yourself - in whose interest would it be to paint the (current) US as an irresponsible actor, one disposed or inclined to take such a dramatic and drastic, unilateral - and unexpected - action?

Is the current administration (I will pass with averted eyes over the lamentable record of the previous appalling administration) - judging by the character and conduct and policies of the President - to the best of our knowledge, prone to such actions?

Secretive, capricious, dramatic, destructive, unilateral, violent? And, if proven, may well trigger a further escalation in hostilities, one that would serve to drag the US closer to some sort of combat status?

Everything about how Mr Biden has conducted himself on Ukraine has suggested a preference for a measured approach, where a course of action is agreed in advance with allies before it is carried out, an approach where knowledge is shared with allies, a preference for consultation, and for allowing (and supporting) a European leading role, with the US offering somewhat discreet - but known - support for Ukraine and its allies, from the side.

That sort of approach (as suggested in the piece cited) is not in character for Mr Biden or his administration, and it would be in marked contrast, and a striking contradiction, with how he has conducted himself thus far in this war.

And, in truth, can one credibly accept anything from a Russian source, for they use mendacity - very skillfully - as a weapon.

Thus, - with what we now know - I would be surprised if the story was true.

However, if that changes, so shall my mind.
 
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Seymour Hersh, the Pulitzer-prize winning journalist who helped expose past American foreign policy scandals like the My Lai Massacre and the torture at Abu Ghraib, claims that the U.S. bombed the Nord Stream pipeline in September 2022:


Here is Hersh's original Substack post:


Do you think his claim is accurate? Why/why not? The official government line is that it was not bombed by the U.S. and we simply don't know who sabotaged the pipeline. The White House has repudiated Hersh's claims.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
I have a lot of issues with the topic's title that suggests itself to be a fact. You should add at least a question mark, or make it a question.
Without that you're already doing propaganda work for people you might not want to do propaganda work for.
 
I have a lot of issues with the topic's title that suggests itself to be a fact. You should add at least a question mark, or make it a question.
Without that you're already doing propaganda work for people you might not want to do propaganda work for.
An excellent point.

@TBL: would you consider adding something, such as a verb - for example, "alleged" to the thread title ("US alleged to have bombed the Nord Stream Pipeline")? Or, ask a question with the thread title on the lines of "Has the US bombed the Nord Stream Pipeline?"

Or, perhaps merely add a question mark, or make it a question, as @P___X suggests?

Otherwise, the thread title implies that this is a proven fact, rather than what the story actually is, for what it reports are really assertions, notwithstanding the (formerly) impressive reputation of the writer, who may, however, have been duped on this occasion.
 
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To be clear, the title was meant to summarize Hersh's assertion, not to reflect my own views (which at the moment are "reserve judgment") or to assert this as fact. I've edited the title to make that clearer.
 
It was bombed. Yes. Everyone can probably agree on that.

The whole timing was a bit weird, though. Maybe that was the point, to distract everyone, I don’t know. In any case, I don’t think more gas would have flowed through the pipeline even if it had not been sabotaged when it was.

I have read through what Hersh wrote and to me it reads like a movie script or something. It just doesn’t feel real, especially not the Norwegian involvement.

Ah, well, who knows. Truth is stranger than fiction. And it will get out there, sooner or later.
 
U.S. officials now claim a "pro-Ukrainian group" sabotaged the pipeline:


The plot thickens...
 
To be clear, the title was meant to summarize Hersh's assertion, not to reflect my own views (which at the moment are "reserve judgment") or to assert this as fact. I've edited the title to make that clearer.
I'd really love if you could further amend this thread title: In Europe, we don't know who Seymour Hersh is, and this thread strikes me - every time it is freshly resurrected - as a reported fact when it is nothing of the sort, and attributing an authority and a gravitas and a credibility to a commentator none of us who actually live in this continent, this world where the war is being fought, have ever heard of.

Something on the lines of "According to SH...", or "SH says..."; or, better still, start the actual thread title with the key statement - "The US bombed the Nord Stream Pipeline" says SH....

Or, why not - better still again - just pose a question as a thread title: Who Bombed The Nord Stream Pipleline? And write about Seymour Hersh and his allegations - for this is what they are - in your original post.

Worse, the thread title emphasis the role of Seymour Hersh, - assuming that he (whom I had never heard of until I came across this thread title, so, each and everytime I come across his name when browsing this site, I ask myself the old "wtf"?, or, rather "who-t-f"?, or, why does this matter?, who cares what he alleges?) rather than the fact that the pipeline was bombed - and this is the important fact in this story, not that a journalist, or reporter, or commentator, - has alleged something.

This is an example of what I mean by a US-centric mindset, or perspective.

Two things matter in Europe, and - in this instance - European perspectives matter, because the war is happening in Europe - and the respective warring parties are all from Europe (well, Russia straddles two continents, I've actually stood where the two continents blend into one another, in the immortal words, years ago, of Neal Ascherson - a commentator whose writing I do respect, "this is a country with its snout lying in Europe and its tail stretching over the Pacific beyond Siberia").

The first is that the pipeline has been bombed. That is incontrovertible.

The second is that the culprits have yet to be identified, for there is considerable ambiguity and uncertainty surrounding this action.

However, yes, the fact that some (somewhat credible) sources now suggest that it is possible that a pro-Ukrainian group may have bombed and damaged the Nord Stream Pipeline is - to put it mildly - a fascinating footnote.

Initially, I would have (almost automatically) assumed Russian culpability: Not just because of their endless and bottomless mendacity and amoral cynicism in this war, but, also because they have been turning gas pipelines on and off - with the casually cynical excuse that they were "conducting tests", or "conducting repairs" - for the past year in tandem with increasingly unsubtle threats to sever gas supplies to Europe.

However, the old question "cui bono?" comes to mind.

And, for now, I will still reserve judgment until we know more.
 
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I'd really love if you could further amend this thread title: In Europe, we don't know who Seymour Hersh is, and this thread strikes me - every time it is freshly resurrected - as a reported fact when it is nothing of the sort, and attributing a gravitas and authority to a commentator none of us who actually live in this world where the war is being fought have ever heard of.

Something on the lines of "According to SH...", or "SH says..."; or, better still, start the actual thread title with the key statement - "The US bombed the Nord Stream Pipeline" says SH....

Or, why not just a question: Who Bombed The Nord Stream Pipleline? And write about Seymour Hersh and his allegations - for this is what they are - in your original post.

Worse, the thread title emphasis the role of Seymour Hersh, - assuming that he (whom I had never heard of until I came across this thread title, so, everytime I come across his name I ask myself the old "wtf"?) rather than the fact that the pipeline was bombed - which is the important fact in this story, not that a journalist, or reporter, or commentator, has alleged something.

This is an example of what I mean by a US-centric mindset, or perspective.

Two things matter in Europe, and - in this instance - European perspectives matter, because the war is happening in Europe - and the respective warring parties are all from Europe (well, Russia straddles two continents, I've actually stood where the two continents blend into one another, in the immortal words, years ago, of Neal Ascherson - a commentator whose writing I do respect, "this is a country with its snout lying in Europe and its tail stretching over the Pacific beyond Siberia").

The first is that the pipeline has been bombed. That is incontrovertible.

The second is that the culprits have yet to be identified, for there is considerable ambiguity and uncertainty surrounding this action.

However, yes, the fact that some (somewhat credible) sources now suggest that it is possible that a pro-Ukrainian group may have bombed and damaged the Nord Stream Pipeline is - to put it mildly - a fascinating footnote.

Initially, I would have (almost automatically) assumed Russian culpability: Not just because of their endless and bottomless mendacity and amoral cynicism in this war, but, also because they have been turning gas pipelines on and off - with the casually cynical excuse that they were "conducting tests" - for the past year in tandem with increasingly unsubtle threats to sever gas supplies to Europe.

However, the old question "cui bono?" comes to mind.

And, for now, I will still reserve judgment until we know more.
I don't know who Seymour Hersh is either.
 
Frankly, I think that’s by design. Hersh broke a couple of important American wartime scandals (My Lai Massacre, Abu Ghraib torture) that controverted government narratives and made the US government look bad and made it clear they were lying to the American people and to the world. They don’t want you to know who Hersh is or to consider him credible. Could he be wrong here? Yes. But the fact that the US government, in the wake of Hersh’s initial story, is now admitting it wasn’t Russia who did this is very telling.

As for the thread title, I already amended it once to comply with requests that I emphasize Hersh’s role in the claim, now I am being asked to do the opposite. I think the title is fine as it is. I know some would rather this thread and its insinuations would simply go away, but I am interested in the truth of what happened and I will not participate in covering it up just because it may unpleasant.
 
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They don’t want you to know who Hersh is or to consider him credible.
Hersh is a crackpot coasting on his rep from decades ago. His later years are defined by conspiracy theories and incredibly sad, inept "reporting," including that Al Qaeda is not responsible for 9/11 and currently that President Biden directly ordered the bombing of the pipeline.
 
Frankly, I think that’s by design. Hersh broke a couple of important American wartime scandals (My Lai Massacre, Abu Ghraib torture) that controverted government narratives and made the US government look bad and made it clear they were lying to the American people and to the world. They don’t want you to know who Hersh is or to consider him credible. Could he be wrong here? Yes. But the fact that the US government, in the wake of Hersh’s initial story, is now admitting it wasn’t Russia who did this is very telling.
Hersh is a distraction, in fact, Hersh is a misdirection, and to insist that he - or his story - have any credibility in this matter, and to retain the current thread title for it reflects this - for he and his story are both, to my mind, an example of misrepresentation, and misdirection.

It is not that "they don't want us to know" - rather, it is that he doesn't matter, any more than any other journalist matters.

This is yet another attempt to make this about an American, one who was busy spinning a frankly incredible tale to a gullible, or credulous, audience.

There is no credible reason for the US to have undertaken such an action, and that such a story was allowed to gain traction - as your misleading thread title implies - misses the point completely. Who would stand to benefit from such an action?

However, one can argue that there are reasons for "elements" within the Ukrainian government, or groups with some sort of links to the Ukrainian government, who were responsible for this - and whether they were accountable to, answerable to, or commanded by, that government - are all matters that merit investigation, and evidently, pose questions that require an answer.

Now, if the late Robert Fisk (whose reliability as a reporter was impeccable, whose professionalism re sources was meticulous) wrote such a story, I would treat the story seriously.

Your thread title compels us to focus on a commentator, - rather than the actual event, which is what is far more important - and - because of the way that the thread title is phrased assumes that his account is an authoritative account.

Hersh is not the story (or, rather he may well be the story in the US, but, he is not remotely the story in Europe, and nor should he be the story; likewise, The (London) Times is a very flawed source, and not one I would consider credible at all, do please remember, that Mr Murdoch owns it), and to stress the (subjective) source at the expense of the story is to misrepresent what is really of importance, and - once again - to view the world through the particular prism of an uniquely American perspective.

Now, what I find interesting is that both US intelligence (and, or at least, of equal relevance), German intelligence seem to think that there is a connection between some "groups" of Ukrainians and the fact that Nord Stream was bombed.

However, what I find of even greater significance is the fact that both intelligence sources (US and German) have chosen to make their thoughts publicly known.

This begs questions of why?

And, why now?

Officially, the Ukrainain Government have denied this, and it will be interesting to see what links exist (if any) between the group alleged to have carried out this bombing, and the Government in Kyiv.

Of interest (to me, at any rate), are what some of the commentators who have been writing about this stuff have to say on some of the sites I keep an eye on.

One of those commentators, Michael Weiss, (senior correspondent on YahooNews, among other activities), has commented on Twitter as follows: "No doubt the Hersh bullshit prompted the U.S. to leak this to the NYT now. The Germans almost certainly knew/know. And it's worth reviewing Scholz's antics in the last few months over Ukraine and Leos, etc. in the that light."

The adjective to describe Hersh's material (and, of course, needless to say, Hersh and his story have been cited approvingly both today and earlier in parts of the Russian media), is instructive, for nobody, anywhere, (in Europe), has taken seriously the idea that the (current) US government have been behind this.

He also wrote - and this, I think, is also relevant, for it suggests a reason why the US leaked this story- as they apparently did - to the NYT (a more credible publication than the deeply flawed London Times), and why they leaked it now: "I'd also retrospectively read the Dugina assassination attribution (also leaked to NYT) as a warning from the IC (International Community) to vested interests in Ukraine not to go off-script in so dramatic a fashion again."

For what it is worth, this would be my own personal reading of why this leak (from the US government) occurred in this precise fashion today.
 
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Hersh is a crackpot coasting on his rep from decades ago. His later years are defined by conspiracy theories and incredibly sad, inept "reporting," including that Al Qaeda is not responsible for 9/11 and currently that President Biden directly ordered the bombing of the pipeline.
Well said.
 
Those who do believe the U.S. government is complicit think that this information was revealed as an alternate narrative to the Hersh story, in that that they're blaming a "ragtag" group, rather than admit complicity (but they know they cannot continue to insist that Russia did it or throw up their arms and say "we don't know"). It will be interesting to see where this goes.
 
Those who do believe the U.S. government is complicit think that this information was revealed as an alternate narrative to the Hersh story, in that that they're blaming a "ragtag" group, rather than admit complicity (but they know they cannot continue to insist that Russia did it or throw up their arms and say "we don't know"). It will be interesting to see where this goes.
Do you seriously believe this?

Are you so invested in this utter tosh, this drivel - this nonsense - that Hersh has been parroting and promoting that you see no other possible explanation?

A far more credible take (now that it appears that the Russians may not have been responsible) is that elements in Ukraine - either with the approval of, on the suggestion of, or, on the orders of, - or not, as the case may be - and this is something that is still very opaque - the Ukrainian administration carried out this action.

What I find fascinating is that the US and the Germans appear to have known about this for quite some time, yet have only chosen to disclose it now, and have chosen to disclose it via a leak to a respected publication in the US.

This tells me firstly, that they were prepared to lie, or, at the very least, to look with averted eyes, a firmly shut mouth, and tightly pinched nostrils at some of the stuff that was happening in, or around, Ukraine, in the interests of giving support to an ally.

It also tells me that they are sending a message to the Ukrainians, and to the US electorate: To the Ukrainians: Our support is not a bottomless blank cheque, not politically, not militarily, not financially, not ethically - and that uncritical support of some actions - plausibly deniable or not - will not be countenanced. To the US electorate: Not us, not this time.

In other words, the Ukrainians can expect to be held (and quite rightly, too) to some sort of account, some sort of standard, in return for such staunch support from "the West".
 
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